Thats the problem. Everyone wants it to be all warm and fuzzy all the time, but it isn't, and it shouldn't be. If it was, why would there be a Heaven to gain, and a hell to shun?
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Thats the problem. Everyone wants it to be all warm and fuzzy all the time, but it isn't, and it shouldn't be. If it was, why would there be a Heaven to gain, and a hell to shun?
Of course, it was picking and choosing from the Bible. Christians do it all the time and Gotch picked and chose those quotes from the Koran. IMO God should try to spread the word and love a little more, instead of just using his "powers" to crush all of these people. Lose a lot of credibility when you order these killings in one part and in another its "may the Lord of peace be with you".Quote:
Originally Posted by 1inStripes
Reminds me of the 10 commandments of George Carlin. There's a lot more than just the Ten though, that's the problem...it's outdated in many parts and people pick and choose what they want to follow. Too many no-no's for a normal person to follow,
No not really, although we all sin daily. Like I said though, if it was all warm, fuzzy and easy, we wouldn't have the people who don't want to believe in it.
*"It's hard to try to argue when someone has that much resentment towards a religion and chooses not to recognize the faults of his own..but if you must..."*
Assumptions?
I'm not involved in the exchange due to a hatred of anything, rather an effort to prevent misinformation and an attempt to correct falsehoods.
You assume I am a Christian. You really don't even have evidence of that. I do in fact have a Christian based belief system, but the best advocate I've ever seen or heard for the position I am taking happens to be an atheist University Professor from the U.K.
The truth needn't be backed by any religious affiliation. The truth is the truth, history is history, what actually happened actually happened and no amount of anti Christian sentiment and incredible exaggeration on your part can change past events nor the truth.
You still avoid answering my question about the eating of Pork, Jesus endorsing an eye for an eye, or the stoning of adulterers. Instead you try to make generalizations and post opinions.
The scriptures you posted bring nothing to your position or to the debate. They are in fact just as I described and explained in a previous post. The passage from Deuteronomy concerns a specific target and a specific point in time. It is not an open-ended command to kill and continue to kill as are the Islamic passages I posted.....
The passage from Samuel that you posted concerned four specific targets (individuals) as I remember, and yes these are a recounting of history.
But then I've already been through that and you simply ignore the facts......
*"But all of that is just historical account of course, God didn't say kill any infants or wasn't really that jealous. Though you write off almost every major instance in history when Christians were the instigators and did the slaughtering. No, not them. Of course the numbers are in the favor of the muslims, you ignore every part of Christian history when they have killed millions upon millions. Can't reason with that denial logic."*
Why don't you give me the historical accounts concerning these "millions upon millions".
*"First of all, it was based on figures for life expectancy, educational levels and per capita income. How does that pertain to this and morals? I have no idea, but lets pretend it does. So to answer your question, yes you should have went on. It would have shown that the U.S. ranked 15th on this list that somehow has relation to morals. It would have also shown that those nations I mentioned were all ranked ahead of the U.S. Why is that important? Because even though these countries have the 90 percent christians, the US has more christians than all of those countries combined. So in this moral study that has nothing to do with morals, this country which is very populated with christians - more than all of those combined - ranks 15th and behind the heavily atheist populated nations I mentioned."*
Do you even look at your own posts?
You named Japan, France, and Sweden.
About 75% of Sweden's population belong to the Lutheran church.
The nearest things we have to true atheist countries would be China, North Korea, Cuba. All of these are (OFFICALLY) atheist.
The U.S. ranked 12th not 15th on the poll I was working from.
Our 78% Christian population isn't really very high compared to many other nations.
You need to take a course on statistics. Total numbers would not factor here....only percentages.
"Christians do it all the time and Gotch picked and chose those quotes from the Koran."
What you simply are failing to understand is that those quotes from the Quran are an Open-ended command to continue with actions as set froth. There is a huge difference.
It's like the difference between a father recounting to his sons the time he killed a couple of enemy combatants in the Gulf War, and the same father instructing his sons to kill any Arab they encounter.
There is a big difference.
"My whole point was that just because you believe in Christianity, it doesn't make you a better person or have better morals. I think the whole thing is ridiculous, but as i've said, I understand why people cling to it. IMO when we stop leaning on Christianity, we'll be a lot better off."
"Christianity/religion clouds judgment most of the time, plain and simple."
"Sure wouldn't be a bad thing and Christianity will continue to grow smaller here..."'
Point is you seem to be yearning for an atheist controlled government.
That's been tried numerous times. Let's look at some of the results:
Nearly 10 million people intentionally starved to death by the atheist government of Soviet Russian in 32-33.
The atheist government of Soviet Russia repressed the church in order to makes thing better for its citizens, just like you suggest, of course it also murdered at least 20 million of those citizens while they were at it.....oh well, I guess you can't have everything.....
Then we have China, led by it's beloved atheist poet, philosopher, and visionary Mao Tse-Tung. He brought about a Cultural Revolution devoid of the trappings and pitfalls of religion....of course he and his atheist government also murdered at least 70 million people, but darn it...it was worth it to get rid of religion....
We can't forget the smiling atheist, our buddy Pol Pot. He brought a much needed atheist regime to Cambodia....smiling and back slapping all the while...then he had over one quarter of the population murdered.....oh for the good ol' days of atheist rule......
You know another great leader had an almost identical opinion of Christians that you hold. He wasn't truly an atheist, oh well, at least he was a huge fan of Darwin, plus he knew how badly Christians could screw things up. He had some great quote you might want to memorize.
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. "
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
" Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease."
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."
Eloque wasn't he?.......yeah, old Adolf Hitler had a way of really putting things into words......
It will be warmer and fuzzier for some of us in the end. :) You can lead a muslim to water, but you can't make him think. The oldest military monument in the US is built to some folks that fought a group of Muslim pirates. Thomas Jefferson started out trying to talk to these folks, pay a price for safe passage, and wound up building a navy once he became president to stop their given duty. When asked why they robbed and enslaved, they said it was the way they were supposed to treat infidels.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1inStripes
"I'm not involved in the exchange due to a hatred of anything, rather an effort to prevent misinformation and an attempt to correct falsehoods."
Not the way I see it.
"The truth needn't be backed by any religious affiliation. The truth is the truth, history is history, what actually happened actually happened and no amount of anti Christian sentiment and incredible exaggeration on your part can change past events nor the truth."
And no amount of anti-islamic rhetoric will change it either.
"But then I've already been through that and you simply ignore the facts......"
As do you with the writing off of almost every account murdering by Christians.
Why don't you give me the historical accounts concerning these "millions upon millions".
I've gave you plenty, you've denied them as defensive actions. But I wouldn't want to admit my God is no better than the rest of them either.
"Do you even look at your own posts?"
Do you? Lets see.
"About 75% of Sweden's population belong to the Lutheran church."
True, but you left something out. Less than 4 percent of the Church of Sweden membership attends public worship during an average week; about 2 percent are regular attenders. I suggest you look at the newest study which states....
* 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
* 23% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
* 53% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force".
That 75% is a bogus number. Until about 10 years ago, every child born was considered a member of the church if just one of their parents were.
Might I also add that Sweden has about half of a million muslims.
"The nearest things we have to true atheist countries would be China, North Korea, Cuba. All of these are (OFFICALLY) atheist."
Because they have been "officially" announced by the communist gov, big difference.
"The U.S. ranked 12th not 15th on the poll I was working from."
Yours must be an older one, the U.S. has fallen to 15th.
Human Development Reports (HDR) ? United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)
"Our 78% Christian population isn't really very high compared to many other nations."
When you have a population of over 300 million, its a lot more than most. That's around 230 million Christians, that's a huge majority. With 230 out of 300 million who are Christians, that's a very significant amount.
You can go with percentage, I guess it supports your "theory" more. When the other country has a Christian population more than the ENTIRE population of those 7 countries combined...I think overall numbers count.
I personally don't see the connection with that survey and the criteria in it having to do with morals, but go ahead and use it.
You keep bringing up these communist countries whose insane leaders need religion to be out of the picture. Of course they are "officially atheist", if I was trying to take over I'd want religion to be done away with too. I never once said anything about an "atheist controlled" gov, its the ppl that I'd rather have atheist/agnostic. The tyranny of the majority here is caused by the Christian majority, it influences legislation all the time. Politicians will do anything to appease the people(majority), but it doesn't represent Agnostics like me.
Hmm, maybe there's your problem. A democracy is majority rule, and if you don't like it, lump it or leave it I guess. Thats just the way it is in a democracy. Of course, if you go to some of these other atheist/agnostic leaning countries, you may not have the freedoms that you are able to enjoy here in the US of A as well.
Religion has no part in a democracy or legislation, that's the problem. Separation of church and state is the way it is supposed to be. And I like it here, just hoping it continues to dwindle like it has.
Seperation of church and state is true and constant in the government. The people who elect those to government positions though have the right to elect people who represent them in their demographic, and ideaology is part of that. It may dwindle, which is sad, but it will never be a miniority in our lifetime in the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burton13
For someone that has talked about how they hate religus intolarence you sure seem intolarent of religion.
In the past even if I disagreed with your POV I thought you could(and usaly did) make a good point.....but in this matter you just come off as angry (Am I the only one reading it that way?)
No, you're not the only one. In fact his insistence that I must be acting from a position of hate further demonstrates his true feelings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Counts
"Not the way I see it."
You have no insight into why I am taking the position I am. Any conjecture on your part would be purely.....conjecture.
"And no amount of anti-islamic rhetoric will change it either."
Actually I've posted no opinions, unlike yourself. Facts and historical data cannot by definition be anti anything. There are on-line resources to help you with that one if needed.
"As do you with the writing off of almost every account murdering by Christians."
Because the accounts in question have been either exaggerated or improperly laid at the wrong feet.
"I've gave you plenty, you've denied them as defensive actions. But I wouldn't want to admit my God is no better than the rest of them either."
Simply stating historical fact. Religious bias doesn't play into it. Which is why I can calmly debate this issue while "others" tend to become emotional.
"True, but you left something out. Less than 4 percent of the Church of Sweden membership attends public worship during an average week; about 2 percent are regular attenders. I suggest you look at the newest study which states....
* 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
* 23% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
* 53% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force"."
Not sure where you got your numbers, they look like the Eurobarometer numbers except you inverted two very important ones in your favor, naughty boy....
The actual Eurobarometer numbers:
23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
23% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force".
You do realize this means only 23% are atheist and 76% are theists. A non-traditional belief in a higher power is still a theist.
"Because they have been "officially" announced by the communist gov, big difference."
Exactly, thank you
*"I personally don't see the connection with that survey and the criteria in it having to do with morals, but go ahead and use it.
You keep bringing up these communist countries whose insane leaders need religion to be out of the picture. Of course they are "officially atheist", if I was trying to take over I'd want religion to be done away with too. I never once said anything about an "atheist controlled" gov, its the ppl that I'd rather have atheist/agnostic. The tyranny of the majority here is caused by the Christian majority, it influences legislation all the time. Politicians will do anything to appease the people(majority), but it doesn't represent Agnostics like me. "*
So, you want a theist government and an atheist populace? That can't be right?
Revisit - "Do you even look at your own posts?"
That's pretty biased.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burton13
As a citizen of this democratic nation, I reserve the right to vote for any candidate that closely represents my views.
but your religious views should not dictate the country's moral agenda, is what burton is trying to say.
you guys twist his words and attack him vigorously
and gotch likes to go on bout the quran, but if everything in the quran is to be taken literally, then everything in the bible, including the old testament, should be taken literally, i. e. first child into slavery etc...
"you guys twist his words and attack him vigorously:
Responding is not an attack. Questioning the validity and meaning of statements is not twisting.
"and gotch likes to go on bout the quran, but if everything in the quran is to be taken literally, then everything in the bible, including the old testament, should be taken literally, i. e. first child into slavery etc..."
Absolute hogwash. No two text should ever be bunched together due to someones personal and uninformed views that they are somehow the same.
Each stand alone, are in no way mystically connected.
We must view them for what they are and for what they say. What may be misunderstood here is that I am not completely comfortable with the violence of the Old Testament.
In fact my personal views are that of a completely "New Law". That only the New Testament is of of real importance to me personally. But this debate should not be about personal views. Although you and 13 can't seem to avoid injecting personal prejudices into it.
However, a reading of it does confirm it (the Old Testament) to be a narrative history (as I have said umpteen times) while a reading of the Quran confirms it to be an ongoing directive.
I don't believe it takes an extremely high intelligence level to understand the difference and how the difference could have an effect on the actions of those reading and adhering to the teaching of the text.
If one tells you of past events, no matter how violent, that is not likely to encourage even the most fervent believer to go out an commit like violence.
On the other hand, a religious text such as the Quran which does not read as a historical narrative, but instead issues direct commands for the taking of violent actions by those reading and taking to heart the text can reasonably be assumed to influence a degree of violent behavior.
Again, the difference is exactly the same as a father telling his sons about his service in war and his having killed enemy combatants and that same father instructing his sons to kill anyone who does not believe as they do. Which do you think would have a higher probability to result in violent acts by his sons?
....have we determined who's pissed the furthest yet?
Apparently it's not about who, but instead about why and how much :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sup-rbeast
One advantage (if you will) that I've always felt that I had in these type of exchanges is that nothing I've ever seen on a message board has ever actually made me angry.
I debated a fairly well know atheist from Canada almost daily for about 5 years. Yes....I just said FIVE years. We exchanged on a variety of theist subjects. At first he tried a lot of name calling and personal attacks. After a few months he found that they actually harmed his argument and that I was not going to respond in kind so he stopped.
I noticed that although I changed very few of his ideas I did change his approach to others. To this day he uses a much "kindlier, gentler" method of getting his point across.
We also became good friends.
BTW, on the subject of the Quran being a directive and the Old Testament being a narrative history he would be in agreement with me. Why, because he is familiar with both text.
Gotch won....
he went the furthest lol
Not sure where you got your numbers, they look like the Eurobarometer numbers except you inverted two very important ones in your favor, naughty boy....
Those numbers were copied and pasted from the same wikipedia you got them from, wasn't altered in any way. If you scrolled down and looked, it said that the atheist rates were 46% to 85%.
Also pulled this from a religious site...
"Sweden relinquished its claim of Lutheranism as its State religion in 2000 and now boasts one of the lowest percentage rates of belief in God in the western world. Sweden can safely lay claim to being one of Europe's "least Christian" nations. A poll from 2006 conducted by Dagens Industri revealed Swedes have far more trust in major Swedish businesses, public television, Swedish universities, and the central bank than in the Swedish Church. As the older generation of Swedes passes away, the percentage of reproducing believers decreases. Only five percent of the population regularly attends church."
countries/sweden
But again I still ask, what did the UN survey have to do with it?
----"Because they have been "officially" announced by the communist gov, big difference."
Exactly, thank you
Not sure if you understand, but that's just the announcement by those communist gov..and I don't think a communist gov really "represents its people". But I never mentioned one communist country, I mentioned real ones that weren't communist.
There's a difference. Intolerant of religion itself as opposed to a intolerant of the people simply because of the religion. I never said and do not believe that Christians are bad people or anything like that, my point was that just because someone isn't...doesn't make them bad either and just because someone is, doesn't make them a good person also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Counts
Not angry at anyone, I never called anyone any name and IMO was pretty calm throughout the debate...and most of yall(the ones actually doing the debating) have returned the favor and didn't do that either.
I probably did come off mad about the legislation being decided by religion, that does piss me off with a lo of it. But not mad at anyone personally or anything.
"Those numbers were copied and pasted from the same wikipedia you got them from, wasn't altered in any way. If you scrolled down and looked, it said that the atheist rates were 46% to 85%."
Not sure how they got altered but they were and still are altered. Here is what you posted on page 17 of this thread:
* 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
* 23% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
* 53% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force".
Here is what that page reads:
23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
23% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force"
Take note of lines 2 and 3.
The poll showing a 46% to 85% atheist rate was conducted by Phil Zuckerman. In case you don't know, Zuckerman is an atheist with an agenda bigger than his ego, which is bigger than Texas. It would be like me quoting a poll conducted by the PTL club.
If you continue to read on it states that another poll showed the percentage at 17%. I'd go with it, really, not just saying that. Using Phil Zuckerman as a source in a serious debate will get you discredited fast than showing up without pants.
Not sure how they got altered but they were and still are altered. Here is what you posted on page 17 of this thread:
* 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
* 23% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
* 53% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force".
Here is what that page reads:
23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
23% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force"
It does say that now and it may be true. But honestly when I read it and pasted it, it was just like that. But it could be the other way like you did. Still believe it is about 60 percent.
"The poll showing a 46% to 85% atheist rate was conducted by Phil Zuckerman. In case you don't know, Zuckerman is an atheist with an agenda bigger than his ego, which is bigger than Texas. It would be like me quoting a poll conducted by the PTL club."
"If you continue to read on it states that another poll showed the percentage at 17%."
That was 1 poll. Obviously there are a lot more that have them in very high numbers.
And those numbers were taken as an average from all of the polls taken and that is where he found the numbers, not really one poll made by him from what I understand. I also used the religious site that wouldn't be biased towards it, Sweden IMO has an atheist majority.
"But again I still ask, what did the UN survey have to do with it?"
Since you have repeatedly stated that we would be better off with a higher atheist rate and a lower rate of believers I assume that quality of life would be better under such circumstances in YOUR opinion?
That poll is about quality of life.
Using the Eurobarometer poll here are the approximate atheist rates for the top five. I stopped there for reasons of time:
Iceland - 11%
Norway -17%
Canada -16%
Australia -19%
Ireland -4%
All about or slightly lower than the U.S. rate with the exception of Ireland which is much lower.
Why are the people of these countries able to have such a high quality of life with so many dang nasty Christians roaming around?
********BUT AGAIN I STILL ASK, DID JESUS CHANGE THE LAW CONCERNING THE STONING OF AN ADULTERER AND AN EYE FOR AN EYE AND THE EATING OF PORK?*************
"Not sure if you understand, but that's just the announcement by those communist gov..and I don't think a communist gov really "represents its people". But I never mentioned one communist country, I mentioned real ones that weren't communist."
Sin, spin, spin...........you can't get any better than official.
"It does say that now and it may be true. But honestly when I read it and pasted it, it was just like that. But it could be the other way like you did. Still believe it is about 60 percent."
So, you believe it is what you believe it is? Not what the source you erroneously used says it is? How very convenient.
"And those numbers were taken as an average from all of the polls taken and that is where he found the numbers, not really one poll made by him from what I understand. I also used the religious site that wouldn't be biased towards it, Sweden IMO has an atheist majority."
All you have to do is look at the Eurobarometer poll that YOU originally posted to see that the 17% figure is far closer than either you or Mr. Zuckerman.
Wow, some of the feature on this site are really puzzling me?
Edited post
Sorry
Continue........
"But again I still ask, what did the UN survey have to do with it?"
I did take your original point in a different direction than you intended, I did this due to not carefully reading the entire subject. My bad....
But, I think it was still valid in its own right.
Now, as I remember your contention was that France, Japan, and (Sweden?) had a high rate of atheists and among the worlds highest morals?
My first response would be that you provided no information to back that statement.
My next response would be that Japan is actually very religious, just not Christian. I believe about 90% identify themselves as Buddhists, Shinto, or a mixture of the two.
Next would be that I feel it has been established fairly strongly that Sweden's atheist rate is no higher than ours, Dr. Zuckerman aside.....
Next would be, I ain't so sure those three actually have high moral standards.
"Not angry at anyone, I never called anyone any name and IMO was pretty calm throughout the debate...and most of yall(the ones actually doing the debating) have returned the favor and didn't do that either."
I agree, you've handled yourself pretty well. You got a little "excited" I believe. Hard to tell on the other end of a keyboard. Maybe came close to argument ad hominem a couple of times. Overall though, for a young guy without much experience you have done very well, especially considering you are on THE WRONG SIDE OF THE DEBATE!!!!!
;)
"I also used the religious site that wouldn't be biased towards it, Sweden IMO has an atheist majority."
The site gives no insight whatsoever into the percentage of athiests population.
I wasn't twisting his words nor was I attacking him. Just bringing up a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggin
And maybe someone's moral views shouldn't dictate but still, it's their right to vote based on their moral views.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burton13
I feel so sorry for you and the ones that agree with you. You are definately in my prayers.
Wait, you admit to atleast 17% are atheists, right? But we have 3-9%, thats about twice the percentage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotch
And why wouldn't they?
Appreciate that, but save them for others. I am doing pretty good right now, a lot others worse off..not just then me, but everyone. People are dying, suffering and basically getting a shitty life. They need all the help they can get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
"And why wouldn't they?"
Why wouldn't they what?
Have a higher moral standard?
You're the one who made the unsubstantiated claim that they do. I simply expressed a degree of doubt about it. It's not up to me to substantiate a doubt.
But it is up to you to substantiate your claim.
and while your at it you could answer my (repeatedly asked) question concerning Jesus and the changing of the law concerning stoning of adulterers, eating of pork, and an eye for an eye.
First of all I never said they have "higher" morals. I've said it numerous times and I'll say it again...
The whole point is that just because you believe in Christianity, that doesn't mean you are a better person or have better morals...and just because you are an atheist/agnostic, doesn't mean you are a bad person and have none.
And yes, I backed that up. The whole prison population argument pretty much took care of that part.
I've ignored it because I have no idea what it's relevance is. I say the Old Testament is full of violence and you say the New is really what we are supposed to follow. So we ignore the old? You're saying thats the radical part and because Christianity has gotten older and we've realized that it's outdated and not supposed to do things like that. I've said before, I love Jesus...good people.